Thrive Makers Back Down On “Flower of Life” Claim!


[photo by Ray Flowers]

Debunking and fact-checking of claims in the Thrive movie are already bearing fruit. One of the outrageous claims made in the film is where Nassim Haramein says, at 16:32 of the film, that the “Flower of Life” design at the Osirian Temple in Abydos, Egypt is “burned into the atomic structure of the rock in some extraordinary way!” Neither Haramein nor anyone else provides a single shred of substantiation for this claim.

In context, the “Flower of Life” design is cited by Thrive maker Foster Gamble as being related to the “torus” design that he believes is a signal from extraterrestrials on how to tap free unlimited energy. The claim about the Osirian Temple design is intended to bolster the (false) idea that aliens came to Earth in ancient times and gave this design to various cultures. A debunking of the “Flower of Life” section appears in Part I of the debunking of the full-length film.

Now the Thrive makers have publicly admitted that the claim about the Flower of Life being “burned into the atomic structure of the rock” is false. Recently the “Fact Check” section on the Thrive website was changed to read thusly:

“Since the completion and launch of THRIVE: What On Earth Will it Take?, we have received new information that the Flower of Life symbol at Abydos is believed by some experts to be inscribed with Ochre stain, which might date it instead to the 1st century AD. It was clearly meant to stand the test of time and to do further testing would require chipping the stone which is currently not allowed. So it remains an open mystery. Nassim Haramein’s original reference was a statement by Greg Braden in his book, Awakening to Zero Point, where on page 135, he writes:

“These beautiful geometric codes have not been etched, painted or carved into the hard rose-granite walls – they are literally “flash-burned” into the stone through a process that is not understood today.”

It doesn’t remain an “open mystery” at all. There is absolutely no evidence that the design was “flash-burned” into the stone (whatever that means). The only basis for that claim is the statement in Braden’s book, but note that Haramein even got that wrong: Braden’s statement, at least as quoted by Thrive on the website, makes no reference to the atomic structure. Haramein just made that up.

So, the Thrive makers are already beginning to retreat from their claims. Note also that Haramein’s defense of the false claim is that he was simply quoting another totally unsourced statement, which he got wrong. Greg Braden is a prolific New Age author who likes to make broad sweeping statements about spirituality and consciousness, and has opined before on ancient astronaut theories. I found a review of Awakening to Zero Point on Amazon (here is the link) which has this to say about that book:

This book is full of much speculation and doubtful “facts” that are supposed, somehow, to be linked. I find it less convincing than most other reviewers. The book starts with a series of “Wow!” events that are implied (without evidence), to be connected. Included are: the end of the cold war, increased numbers of earthquakes, climate change, new viruses, increases in the number of alien sightings and crop circles, and unspecified “studies” and “evidence” that someone other than the Egyptians built the pyramids…

Sounds like the usual Thrive material: pseudoscience, unsourced claims, bad history, New Age woo and crankery being passed off as serious research.

Nevertheless, it’s significant that the Thrive makers backed down on this point. I am curious to see what other retractions they will (or will not) make over the coming months.

Thanks to “Sequoia” in the comments on a previous post for bringing the retraction to our attention.

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116 responses to “Thrive Makers Back Down On “Flower of Life” Claim!”

  1. The Locke says :

    It’s actually kind of shocking that they backed down on at least one claim. Most conspiracy theorist won’t back down on any claim, even when they have been proven to be 100% wrong! Usually they just modify their claim at the very least to still fit their point of view, but using current evidence, or claim that the indisputable facts made are fake, and are being used in an attempt to discredit them.

    A question to those who still think that the stuff in Thrive is true: If they were wrong about this part, could it be that they are wrong about all the parts?

    • Skepticalskeptic says :

      Logical parallel: “If psychology’s claim that homosexuality is a mental illness is later retracted, does that mean all of abnormal psychology is wrong?”

      No. This doesn’t mean its all correct either. I for one, am skeptical of all arguments based on symbology as I think they detract from true arguments.Use your brain. If they make a claim but don’t elaborate on it….look it up. Easy as that. If someone says “Crystal Skulls came from the Aztecs” look it up…you find a study that proves they weren’t.

      Be skeptical of so called “debunkers” as well. They make the same fallacious errors, but have the benefit of the “status quo” to hide behind.

      • Uberhat says :

        Burden of proof rests with the claimant, (I.e. truthers and conspiracy theorists) not those who doubt their claims. In any case, evidence is often on the side of skepticism if anything.

  2. Professor Pious says :

    Haramein has been making this claim for years, and even embellished on Braden’s “flash-burned” claim. He talks about the symbol at Abydos in this video starting around 5:55, and actually states it is “laser-burned” into the rock:

    Aside from the obvious that the Egyptians did not have laser technology at the time, there should be some visible evidence of rock melting inside the symbol if it was cut with a laser. It would have a glassy appearance, which it does not.

    So Haramein made up the laser part too, no need to blame Gregg Braden for that.

    On another note, that book review on Braden’s “Awakening to Zero Point” looked very familiar. It’s actually a very short version of the book review on the Skeptic Report by Richard Rockley:

    Indeed, Thrive certainly makes use of the Braden method of “WOW! Events” to bamboozle the audience.

    • Isaac says :

      Wow “debunkers” and agents involved on the “debunk” side sure like to use psychological tactics in their style of writing such as “backing down” and “retreating” to describe the THRIVE people, all while referring the debunk side as “bearing fruit” etc. It’s like a pseudo-fertility reference (like the debunkers don’t need boner pills but the ‘pseudoscientists’ do; like their information is more FERTILE) Classic psy-op behavior: purporting your side to be more virile, direct and successful, as if this thing is some kind of sexual advance or war (or description of a penis, in order to appeal to the reptilian brain which is the target of the this type of rhetoric). And also the classic approval/acceptance tactic of “you’re not cool if you believe that, and people will think you’re weird, etc”.. it’s totally obvious in the way it is written. This type of info-portrayal by the debunk side is actually more dangerous than the THRIVE crew because A) it insults the readers intellect by only appealing to the limbic (reptilian) brain (trust,safety,fear) because while at the same time it B) LEAVES OUT further actual explanations to anything related to the topic which could redirect the reader to another one of the ENDLESS STRING of anomales out there from same era and era ruins-sites. (It’s similar to the “By Omission” tactic used in law) The debunk side is obviously appeaing to the reptilian brain while the THRIVE side to the mammalian brain (sharing,revealing,disclosing) of information side, rather than the concealing, hindering, blocking and control of information (which is rapidly becoming outdated, archaic practice).

      • conspiracykiller says :

        You should probably put the dope down, turn your computer off, and try a writing style that doesn’t require one to wear wall sized glasses.

      • Joel T. says :

        You mean the rodent side of the mammalian brain (hording, mating with siblings/parents, spazing out over imagined things). Or is this also classic morpheme-hyphen-morpheme tactics?

  3. Hollywood Tomfortas says :

    Hi, boys and girls of the THRIVE debunking multiverse!

    I’m so happy youse guys have taken this stand of debunking the movie, but I’m here to jazz up the conflict and make it more personal if not personable. You see, as it stands now, it’s like WW I trench warfare. You’re ensconced here in your “debunker” (pun intended!) lobbing skeptical mortar shells at Foster Gamble’s trench way across “No Man’ Land.” You celebrate some success here about them backtracking on the rock etching claim, but still, there’s too mush distance in between. So here’s my proposal.

    I happen to know Foster personally because of our mutual friendship with Arthur M. Young (1905-1995) inventor of the Bell-47 helicopter (which you see flying for about 8 seconds in the movie starting at 0:10:25.) Arthur founded the Institute for the Study of Consciousness in Berkeley in 1972 and is responsible for turning Foster on to the curious topological nature of the torus. (Check out Arthur’s website: arthuryoung [dot] com)

    I also happen to be moderator of the Arthur Young Yahoo group forum where Foster posts and I just posted my initial reaction to viewing the movie THRIVE.

    Remember that Foster is an Aikido master, which is a dance best done up close and personal, so maybe some of youse guys can join the fun on the Yahoo group in the hopes of putting away your clunky mortars and instead get down and dirty with some nice invigorating hand-to-hand Internet combat! I mean, why lob mortars when you can gouge eyes like Moe does to Curley?

    Anyway, here’s what I just posted for Foster and the gang at the Yahoo forum:

    Posted by Tom Mellett on the Yahoo group Arthur:

    Excellent movie, Foster! I just finished watching it on the YouTube link that Mike Buechele gave us here. I must say that the narration of your personal story is what lifts this movie far above its comparative conspiratorial genre efforts like Zeitgeist, Loose Change and even The Secret.

    And I must say: Wow, Foster, you still look quite the Ivy League hunk what with your California surfer aura and that plunging neckline. I pondered if you should have been wearing a gold medallion or something, even a Nehru jacket for 60’s nostalgia’s sake, but I think the only improvement I could make would be to put you in a dark navy blue Steve Jobs turtleneck. However, I must say that the screen really lights up whenever Kimberly comes on. Man, the camera loves her and by God, I could see you taking the last half hour of the film and putting it on TV as an infomercial. Jeez, she is so solid sweet and sincere that if she were selling Genie Bras on TV, I might even buy one.

    So go the “Full Monty,” Foster and make an infomercial out of THRIVE! I mean, you’re a salesman extraordinaire and the sizzling syzygy of you and Kimberly would be able to “sell the handle off a broom” as me late Irish father would quip in discussing a good salesperson.

    Again, what really makes THRIVE work is that you make it so personal, and what a personality you have! I mean, you’re as guileless as Forrest Gump, who is the modern American version of Parsifal in the search for the Holy Grail.

    The saving grace is that you are so guileless that you’d believe anything anyone would tell you, but in the end no one would hold it against you. That’s why you can get away with putting all these wacko-Bozo New Age Yahoos and hucksters in your movie (Hi, deep-Pockets Chopra and “2-4-6-8, Icke! the Reptilian” but it all worksd in your favor because it comes across vividly like a block party on Sesame Street, or even better, Mister Rogers Neighborhood.

    Wow, Eureka! Bingo! Now there’s an idea for you! Yes, I can see it now. You, Foster Gamble are truly the Fred Rogers for the new Millennium!!! Yes, indeed, maybe an early TV or Internet spinoff of THRIVE can be “Mister Gamble’s Neighborhood,” and then we can outfit you in one of Fred’s trademark zip up sweaters. And you can take us to the Land of Make Believe Conspiracy using not a trolley, but an anti-gravity powered flying saucer that abducts all the viewers into the New World Order Fantasy land.

    (On that note we can look into the Walt Disney approach but at some other time.)

    Think of the possibilities, Foster. Just as Fred Rogers would get visits from the postman or the delivery man Mr. McFeely (hey, rybo could play that part!), you could get visits from all these various new Age and Conspiracy characters and then you all go off to the Land of new World Order make Believe and have all kinds of cute and funny adventures.

    How about it, Foster? You could be King Friday XIII and Kimberly could be . . Lady Kimberly Saturday. And if we can’t get it on PBS, then we pitch it to commercial TV, and who else would sponsor it. Procter and Gamble. Soitenly! Nyuk! Nyuk! Nyuk!


    • Catherine Priestley says :

      HI Hollywood Tomfortas

      When you learn that there is no such word as youse ….. I will believe what you say until then, I debunk your claims and highlight your bad grammar.

  4. muertos says :

    Thanks for your comment, Tomfortas. The Yahoo post that you replicated here is amusing, so thanks for the humor as well.

    Honestly I have no intention of engaging in “hand to hand combat” with believers in the Thrive movie, much less Foster Gamble himself. This is not personal and I have nothing to gain by going to another forum to engage him or other Thrive makers. If they want to respond to items posted on this blog, they may do so just the same as any other commenter.

    I appreciate the style of your post, but in my view it sends the misleading message that there is something of an “equal contest” between claims made by the Thrive movie and those of us who rebut them. There is no such equal contest. You simply can’t argue with facts or logical reasoning, no matter how fervently believers in Thrive want to try to deny those things. The “battle,” if there is one, is grotesquely one-sided. I’m content to post our debunkings and our observations here and let the public who is interested in getting the facts about the Thrive movie find us through their own efforts. Of course I won’t speak ill of anyone who chooses, on their own terms, to engage Thrive believers with information posted here, and I wish you the best of luck. As conspiracy theorists and fringe believers tend to be largely impervious to logical or factual arguments, however, I personally find that a “law of diminishing returns” eventually kicks in once you push the debunking to its farthest limit. That’s just my opinion, however.

    • Robin Raindrop says :

      “…deliver us from Goddess Reason and Newton’s Sleep.” Any de-bunk on the conversation about “thriving” on this planet? Or does “scarceity” always trump “abundance” in your worldview?

      • muertos says :

        My “worldview” is entirely irrelevant. The only thing at issue in this blog is the factual and logical veracity of the claims presented in the Thrive movie.

    • See'r_between_the_lines_see'r_of_the_defensive says :


  5. shortskirtlongjacket says :

    Hi, have you read the Debunking Handbook?

  6. Levi Tarpley says :

    SO did everyone forget about the part where the big names control the money system?! This is more important than this rock myth in my opinion. Or how about the odd disappearance of Tesla and his research? That is written in the history books, not speculated. I mean I am all for facts before fiction, but some fiction has hidden facts; and rightly so. This atomic structure mumbo jumbo is irrelevant, there is other life out there now let’s move past that and look into the federal reserve, our energy production methods, and the operant abuse of worldwide capital. Thanks for helping me see another side folks!

  7. World citizen 13 says :

    The best part of Thrive is the follow the money section. Knowing about that is far more important than the issue of crop circles and so on. There you find the germ of truth in this documentary that others do not cover as well. If we do not embrace a different economic paradigm for the way humanity behaves in respect to each other and the biosphere on which we all depend, than the future is truly grim.

    • muertos says :

      The “Follow the Money” section of Thrive is wildly inaccurate, and suffers from the same defect of conspiracy-based garbage thinking as the rest of the film.

      I always want to ask the people who are evidently content to cherry-pick the assertions in the film: you’re perfectly OK with the makers of this movie lying to you, and pushing demonstrably false information as fact, so long as there is something else in the movie that you like? Really? That’s really OK with you? What makes you want to give this film, and its disingenuous makers, the benefit of the doubt on that score? If someone blatantly lies to you about subject X, why do you cut them slack on subject Y? You really find that acceptable? If so, why?

      • Levi Tarpley says :

        No disrespect intended but what is your point here? I can see that you think the “follow the money” section is false but where are the facts to back it up? Just because it was put into a “conspiracy” film does not instantly make it false. So do you believe that JFK was actually killed solely by Lee Harvey Oswald? We can definitively say there is plenty of evidence that he was not, as there is plenty of evidence concerning the worldwide monetary system and it’s historical corruption; check out a history book and put two and two together. One can not help but consider that monopolies never ended.

        Can you give not credit at all to any of the topics in this film? Will you continue to bash any conspiracy blindly? Really? The world is not completely understood, in many ways, why act like we know it all? There are plenty of conspiracies out there but this “follow the money” is something we should all AT LEAST consider. Subject “W”, “X”, “Y’, and “Z” are included in this film; it is intended to point out certain things about multiple topics. NO slack intended on any topic just observation of some more relevant information in the film.

      • muertos says :

        I again ask those of you who defend the Thrive movie to present a single specific instance of factual inaccuracy on this blog, together with evidence backing up your claim. I’ve asked that question time and time again and not a single defender of this film has ever done that. The response I usually get is stuff like, “But what do you really believe?” and “But my conspiracy theory is TRUE!” and, in some cases, accusations that I’m paid by the Rockefellers to run this blog–but never any actual concrete specifics on what I have supposedly gotten wrong.

        JFK is beside the point, but, believe it or not–and I know you do not–there isn’t a shred of evidence that Oswald acted in concert with anyone else. Not one. But don’t take my word for it; read Bugliosi’s book, which demolishes every single JFK conspiracy theory there is.

        I find it somewhat ironic that you tell me to “check out a history book and put two and two together.” I happen to teach history and am working on an advanced degree in it, so in point of fact I take this advice every day of my life. Guess what? I still don’t believe in paranoid conspiracy theories.

        You have not convinced me that you are unwilling to give the filmmakers a total pass on pushing demonstrably false information so long as they present another conspiracy theory that you happen to like and have been fooled into believing. The Thrive makers seem to have counted on precisely this effect: they offer up a smorgasbord of enough bizarre conspiracy theories to choke a horse, and then expect viewers to pick and choose from it like customers at a cafeteria. Unfortunately, reliable source material doesn’t work this way in the real world, because of something called credibility–something the Thrive movie sorely lacks.

      • Jonathan says :

        So… based on what Muerto is saying none of us should ever listen to the gov’t again nor anything related to gov’t… I mean, look at declassified files of USA, nuclear testing on kids and adults without consent. Just all sorts of terrible crap admitted, yet here we still let this gov’t function and accept the reports it gives out… your logic is flawed. I look outside my window at the city, it’s all human, and requires huge amounts of energy that it doesn’t create to sustain it. Our species and systems are flawed. We need to adjust. Here are some logical things, see if you can process them

      • Joel T. says :

        Jonathan, based on what you’ve said, we can conclude that you are not on speaking terms with logic, else wise you’d recognize the false dichotomy logical fallacy you just made.

  8. Hollywood Tomfortas says :


    Their alleged “backing down” from this claim is really bogus. If anything, it’s a good PR strategy, where they can compartmentalize: i.e., claim responsiveness to criticism on one page of their website, but on another, they totally ignore the criticism.

    I just went to the THRIVE Facebook page

    where the most recent entry on their Wall — made one hour ago — is a link to the main Thrive site to watch Nassim discuss the Flower of Life. Since it is simply a 2-minute excerpt from the movie, the “burned into the rock” claim is still there.

    THRIVE pioneer, Nassim Haramein, discusses the significance of the Flower of Life and its relation to the torus energy.

  9. marc says :

    This is not the design in his movie. This one is”″

    if you are going to debunk his claims, at least follow some kind of accuracy.


  10. marc says :

    Quoting muertos: “I again ask those of you who defend the Thrive movie to present a single specific instance of factual inaccuracy on this blog…”

    You are not showing the correct flower of life at the osarian temple. To say you are being factual and then mislead with an obviously carved depiction of the flower is an example of factual inaccuracy. The correct image is here:

    please dont claim to be all above the mudslinging when you are in fact just taking part.

    • muertos says :

      I am aware that the image of the “Flower of Life” shown on this page is not the selfsame one as the movie. I searched for a non-copyrighted version of the Abydos flower to use on this blog but could not find one, so I used this one instead. The exact image at issue doesn’t change the substance of the article.

      I strive to not use copyrighted images so as to avoid any potential abuse of DMCA.

      [EDIT] As another commenter also mentioned that this is not the same “Flower of Life” and directed me to a picture of the Abydos one that can be used without copyright issue, I’ve gone ahead and changed the picture.

      • Hollywood Tomfortas says :

        yo muertos!

        If you might just dismount your self-righteous DMCA high-horse, you would see that Marc has a very valid point. Indeed the Italian FOL image you used is quite misleading and I can’t believe that you did not find a non-copyrighted image of the Abydos FOL, especially when it appears on the wiki page for the Flower of Life, right below the photo you DID use! LOL!

        Admittedly the wiki photo is poor quality but it is the actual burned-into-the-rock Abydos image that you could have used. However, I would suggest that the best image is the geometric sketch which shows the Flower of Life as it is actually used in THRIVE.

        This is a good time to address the history of the Flower of Life and why it is so important to Nassim Haramein and then to Foster Gamble. You see, the New Age origin of the Flower of Life leads back to probably the most successful American-born guru of the entire New Age movement, the one and only Drunvalo Melchizedek. (born as Bernie Perona in 1941. Check out )

        Now you may have read that Nassim got this info on the Abydos FOL from Greg Braden, which is probably true, But Greg Braden got his information from Drunvalo, who has been teaching about this Flower of Life as a spiritual path for the past 40 years. I even heard about him 35 years ago when I lived in Austin, Texas and Drunvalo lived on his cosmic ranch in Wimberley, TX, just 40 miles SSW of Austin.

        Now check out what Drunvalo says about the Flower of Life and its spiritual importance. This is not just the symbol of free energy, it is the very religious spiritual foundation of the whole friggin’ movie THRIVE.


        The Flower of Life is an ancient religious symbol of the sacred geometry (like “The Tree of Life” symbol in the Cabala), containing the encoded creation pattern for the fundamental forms of space and time – a graphical expression of the connections between all sentient beings, and with the life force itself.

        As a symbol of Sacred Geometry, the Flower of Life pattern is comprehensible only through intuitive approach, though it is a very pure and mathematically simple concept of harmony and symmetry.

        Now from the following two sites, more about its spiritual importance and its discovery at Abydos

        What is the Flower of Life symbol?

        The Flower of Life symbol is considered to be sacred among many cultures around the world, both ancient and modern. Within this symbol can be found all the building blocks of the universe that we call the Platonic Solids. The symbol can be used as a metaphor to illustrate the connectedness of all life and spirit within the universe.

        In the Flower of Life course, the Platonic Solids are studied as they relate to the human body and the nature of consciousness leading the student to not only an intellectual understanding of the universe, but an experiential awareness of “God” and a feeling of connection to All That Is.

        The Platonic Solids are important because they are found in the rudimentary construction of organic life, as well as music, language, and consciousness itself. In the Flower of Life workshop we show how these building blocks of life called the Platonic Solids serve as templates through which the foundation of all life everywhere can be expressed. Once this is understood, the importance of the Flower of Life becomes apparent as a totally integrated expression of “God” or “All That Is.”

        The Flower of Life is a universal template with many lenses. When placed over the face of a common or ordinary circle or sphere, the Flower of Life maps a window into the unity of infinity and turns the ordinary into a revelation of the extraordinary.

        Looking into the window of the Flower of Life challenges us to unify our mind, heart, and spirit. When we can truly see all life woven so intimately, we strengthen the embrace of the divine in our lives and we can transform our world through the vision of universal unity.

        Where can the Flower of Life symbol be found?

        The Flower of Life symbol can be found in various locations around the planet. No one knows for sure how old this symbol really is. We can get an approximate idea of a minimum age from the middle Osirian temple at Abydos, Egypt, where the symbol is found.

        The middle temple at Abydos is much lower in elevation than the other two temples. The temple was buried at the time the pharaoh Seti I was constructing the other two temples at Abydos. It is notably different in its construction. Utilizing large granite blocks and amazing precision, this temple is unlike any other Egyptian temple architecture except for the temple by the Sphinx.

        The FOL pattern was placed upon the granite siding of this temple. It was not carved into the granite. It seems to have been burned into the granite or somehow drawn on it with incredible precision.

        The FOL symbol has also been found in Masada Israel, Mount Sinai, and many temples in Japan and China. Recently it has been found in India and we heard a report that it was found in Spain as well.

        Now check out his wiki entry.
        You see, Drunvalo has already succeeded in creating a free energy device, but it is not mechanical. It is the very human being itself that taps into this Mer-Ka-Ba energy. Notice how the counter-rotating interlocking tetrahedrons will generate the flower of life form as a standing wave pattern spinning at 90% the speed of light. (Hey, that’s 160,000 miles per second.)


        Drunvalo describes Merkaba meditation as creating a 55-foot-wide (17 m) energy field around the body with two counter-rotating tetrahedrons spinning at about 90% of the speed of light. Drunvalo writes that the energy from the Merkaba field is strong enough that it has routinely set off radars and electromagnetic monitoring equipment resulting in visits from helicopters sent to investigate in the middle of his workshops.[3] He describes how he and groups he has worked with have been able to amplify intention through their Merkaba fields and for example create clean air for several miles around them, visible in the skies above them, by the ring of polluted air beyond.

      • muertos says :

        Thanks for giving me a heads-up to the better image. I’ll go ahead and change it. Also thanks for the background on the Flower of Life presented here. It’s very illuminating. The more I learn about the New Age symbols incorporated into Thrive, the more certain I become that the movie is primarily intended as a New Age religious document.

      • The Locke says :

        How is that thin?

  11. thesustainableme says :

    The movie claims that there is almost “no other writing” at the Osirian Temple. Actually, there is quite a bit. Check out the pictures at Egypt’s official tourist site. 🙂

  12. Tony says :

    I believe,…

    -that the primary motivating factor and intention of the film
    is to do good and inform people.

    -everyone will FACT check for themselves, or NOT,
    and “choose” what they will believe.

    – that nobody “knows it all”, and everyone has “got it right”
    on some subject and wrong on others,…

    -many things that are presented in the film are accurate.

    -Deepak Chopra is more rooted in honesty, and the “scientific method”,
    than many of his critics make themselves out to be,…

    -my negative criticisms directed at Steven Greer ,
    and David Ickes “reptilian assertions” are justified
    enough to say that they do more harm than good.

    –I am very thorough in fact-checking, and admit my mistakes easily,

    -I am a good person, with good intentions, hoping to get the most,
    out of writing my opinion, by bringing to your attention,
    “without dwelling” on what is bad.

  13. Dawson Lodge says :

    Hey it’s obvious that the flower of life pattern was holographically projected into the stone by a 5th dimensional intelligence !!

  14. Niall Brown says :

    I’m interested to know how this detracts from the point of the statement, and the film itself for that matter. Anyone who has actually done research, not the unintellectuals that seem to thrive here (pardon the pun) will know that the basis on which he sets this film is entirely correct. Similarly, whether or not the Taurus inscription was made by ancient aliens or in 1 AD, they shouldn’t have known about it, it is a new (relatively speaking) scientific advancement.

    • Anastasio says :

      Taurus inscription? A new scientific advancement?!

      Has anyone else come to the conclusion that Niall Brown knows less than he is letting on?

  15. travis says :

    Haha and these guys are using Wikipedia as a reference. Wikipedia is Witten by anyone with a computer. It’s not fact, it’s from one’s personal opinion. Get a life

    • a rational person says :

      Got news for you, hoss…every entry on wikipedia is checked by a board of independent editors. it’s not “personal opinion.” wikipedia has a hell of a lot more editorial checking than thrive does…lemme give u an example…thrive’s biggest source on crop circles is a woman who thinks this nutbag in holland is seeing ghosts in his digital camera…hes been proven wrong zillions of times but this chick (nancy talbott) keeps sayin its real…now thats someone who needs to get a life. besides, u probably believe 911 was an inside job don’t u? don’t u? hahahaahhahahhaa fucking nutbags…all conspiracy nutbags are the same

      • flyersfan says :

        There is evidence to show that 911 was an inside job and it would take a very long time to explain it al her so why not go look for yourself instead of invalidating yourself by stooping to petty name calling and insults

      • conspiracykiller says :

        There is no evidence, the only thing online is a bunch hooey made up by unqualified cranks who think a youtube video suffices as evidence.

        Meanwhile in the real World evidence is something that demands far more stringent authentication than a video clip.

        People who believe 911 conspiracy theories are clowns with no idea what supportable evidence and beyond reasonable doubt means.

      • a rational person says :

        why not go fuck urself, stupid nutbag? there is no evidence that 911 was an inside job. nothing. youre a conspiracy nutbag if you think 911 was an inside job. just a raving loon like all the rest. probably believe in lizard people too.

    • Anastasio says :

      Travis, you should note well that the Wikipedia reference is linked to the blog of a man who has actually seen the Flower of Life symbols at the Temple of Osiris with his very own eyes, which is more than we can say of Haramein.

      Further to that, Gamble also has no qualms with using Wikipedia as a reference source:

      “Supreme Court in Israel Funded by Rothschilds Fact: The “All-Seeing Eye” over-sees the Supreme Court complex in Israel, designed and funded entirely by the Rothschilds. (read more)
      Dorothy de Rothschild financially supported the creation of a new Supreme Court building in Israel.


      “Supreme Court of Israel”:

      Check it on the Thrive Fact Check and please do report back with your conclusion.

  16. Ran_D says :

    No matter;

    “What” the relativity of the Osirian icon is to any and or all things, and or
    “When” it was placed it in various places,
    “Where” it originated,
    “Who” placed it in various places,
    “How” it was done,
    “Why” is was done …

    It is Still an extraordinarily beautiful image, that is bonded together with superb reason and logic, that has meaning that transcends any effort to debunk its presence, and mystery, with the ability within it to disassemble its parts into so many amazing interesting concepts, both science and art … think of it what you will, but simply because someone who has no idea themselves How to Describe its existence, who chose language to describe its mystery to themselves, as best their own imagination was impressed with its mystery, is still as good a means of imagining it as any alleged so-called factual interpretation … Says More about the magical nature of its mystery than does some otherwise awkward stumbling description intended to reduce its exceptional image and vision of combined Art and Science, that validate its existence far beyond any doubting Thomas who would deny any image of beauty on the simplistic basis of Stumptosis Criticality, that is nothing more or less than Cryptic Cynicism, as a substitution of Negative imagery being seated on the throne of great beauty, as an alternative to Hope, for the purpose of disposing of even Hope itself, to the same extent as claiming Negativity is All there is … in other words, Nothing in the vein of Constructive Criticism is achieved toward a greater and deeper understanding of such marvel in design.

    Destructive Criticism is Void of Value, the same as Destructive Creation is, which is defined economically as;

    “Innovation that contributes damage rather than benefits, that recent financial innovations e.g. derivatives and non-conventional mortgages are criticized by economic definition of theory in action, as Destructive Creativity, responsible in its contribution as the solution to the problem that became the cause of financial crisis of 2007.

    That said, Creative Destruction as a process of the universe, is an appalling purposeful descent into the abyss of hopelessness void of resurrection of Creation itself, as a Positive conclusion of the purpose of existential life to become one with itself within the concepts of identity with the eternity of reality, beyond a simplistic Dead End.

    In short, I see no positive point in so-called debunking of that which no one Knows how to accurately describe. In other words, it makes no difference whether or not the icon was inscribed by some kind of Flash Burn Atomic Lazar, or by some kind of Acid able to burn the image in stone. or enhance the image after having been somehow etched in the stone, where such terms used to define How it came to be there, are sufficient when no other definition is sufficient to provide any so-called Factual explanation, when the purpose of de-bunking becomes of greater importance than the magnificent image of the icon itself … whether it was placed there a dozen years ago by some inventive or clever method e.g. acid etching by someone playing a role of being either a devilish figure intent on creating harm, of a Santa Clause figure having fun, providing a Mystery, none have still figured out the 6 criteria to confirm the alleged Fact, with the Purpose motivated underlying it!

    That the fact is claimed to having been created in the AD realm two thousand years ago, debunks Nothing. its Mystery is as present in every way, as if it were created fifty thousands years ago, of ten years ago, or when ever such a design with so much depth became created.

    No matter the “What, When, Where, Who, How, and Why” are in all the relatives, it is still an undeniably magnificent creation of design, that whose message is we are more than the sum of our base consumptions, and this is inspiration to that cause!

    • a rational person says :

      bunch of crap. haramein tried to claim that the thing was “burned” into the rock so the audience would think it was put there by aliens. that’s total bullshit and haramein knew it and muertos called him on it. the only “inspiration” here is how inspirationally stupid believers in thrive are.

    • Wyboth says :

      So, what you’re saying is that it’s a pretty picture? Ok. We never said it wasn’t. We did say that it wasn’t burned into the rock chemically. You’re also saying that the picture exists? Ok. We never said it didn’t. You’re saying that it has a profound meaning and it’s the epitome of art and science? Well, I have to disagree. I mean, really, it’s just a bunch of circles. I wouldn’t call it artistically creative, nor would I say it has any paramount scientific value. A hidden meaning? Maybe. It might have been a symbol of something in ancient times, but it has no real value now.

      • Ran_D says :

        The Great thing about Opinion and Art, is everyone can have one, its in the mind and eye of the beholder!

        If one sees relativity and another doesn’t, that doesn’t mean positive reinforcement of negativity is a positive either.

        In the end of the great war of good and evil, the job of evil is to prove life is not Good, and the job of Good is its own right, while its only ours to decide which it is. That was the trial of Abraham, and of Job, and of the Jesus figure. Did evil prevail and prove it was greater than good, and it rules, or vice versa.

        Its all up to the individual to decide. Allegedly thats the ultimate purpose of man’s creation, to judge Life, is it Good or is it Evil. Its Both while we are present, it isn’t both when we cease being present. Its not neither either when we cease being present, our individual trial is to make the determination ourselves, is life Good or is Life Evil. Does Evil prevail, or does good prevail. I suppose Evil can prevail by creating such great evil, that we would judge Life to have No Value, and No Good, and only be purposed toward creating the End of Life all together, in which case, that is the theological moment when God is Beaten by Evil because people have judged Evil to be greater than Good, and God, and Evil transcends to the throne of God, to become God as Evil, to become Evil for all eternity. The question might be, can evil dream up enough chaos to last an eternity, and God being banished is only one of the humiliations issued forth from the decree of Evil, by Evil, and Evil reign eternally.

        To some Life is all Evil, there is no Good in life, and their goal is either self destruction, or to take as many as they can, and even All if they can, as their purpose to extinguish Life.

        Some have decided Life has no Good, and commit suicide to extinguish their life.

        Some have decided Life has no Good, and seek to destroy All Life, and live only to the purpose and cause to destroy all life.

        Some have decided Life is Good, no matter what Evil may have done to Good to destroy all that is Good, to persuade those who desire to believe Life is Good, by trying to prove Life is Evil. That was the wager between God and Satan when God permitted Satan to inflict all manner of Evil upon Job, and God bet on Job, that in spite of all evil inflicted upon Job, Job would continue to believe Life is Good, and that is what Job decided to believe in spite of the best efforts of Evil to convince Job Life was Evil. Evil Failed to win that battle.

        The same with the Jesus Story, the purpose of Evil was to take away all Good from Jesus, and force Jesus to bow down to Evil, and Jesus refused, instead choosing to believe God and Life were Good, no matter how great the evil brought upon him, which in turn made Jesus that first begotten who denied and defied all evil, even down to the grave, and he even said “Father why hast thou forsaken me”, up to his last breath, which is why he is called the Cryest, having decried evil, even to his own end, more greatly than any before or since, which brought him the title of the “Christ” the great Judge over all Good and Evil.

        These are merely stories of Good and Evil, as example of what some have chosen to believe Life is.

        Some see it, some don’t. Some try to disprove the Good of Life, while others stand to what they see as the evidence Life is Good, in spite there are those who are committed to proving Life is Evil … so it is with anything anyone sees as beautiful, and an other does not. Even to the point that some who see no beauty, hate those who do. Jealousy is one cause, another is pride, another is the simple desire to prove a thing of beauty is ugly.

        Both can be seen in the same thing. I’ve seen more evil than I ever had any wish to see, that gave me every reason to choose to believe Life is All Evil … I still refuse to accept its reign, at every cost … It is Good for so many I personally chose to still believe to see Life is Good, even though its a grave struggle at times, I refuse to concede to Evil!

        I Choose to see Good rather than prove Evil is greater. Thats Easy to Prove … Try Proving Good is Greater and then you get to see what Evil really is, and why waste your life and time … you really don’t want to prove Evil reigns, for in the end it is the absence of you in your own presence!

        I Choose to see Beauty, rather than strive prove it is Not!

      • a rational person says :

        @ ran_d : facts are good. new age bullshit and conspiracy theories are evil. lying about how the flower of life got on the temple wall is evil. calling out liars is good. defending liars is evil.

        any questions?

      • Ran_D says :

        No question, only a comment:

        I didn’t jump to the conclusion he was Lying, much less lying with malice of intent, nor for gain, or self aggrandizement. To assume that was his agenda is a presumption from a single perspective, that reaches for the negative too quickly, adding nothing constructive.

        I saw the remark as a way of trying to explain the otherwise unexplainable, and not in any way mean to be conclusive, as to be a declaration of fact, saying, hey This is How it Happened.

        That the guy is a lay person to sophisticated technology, was obvious on its face, he did not have the ability to make a statement as an intent of Fact.

        What he did do in my opinion was, Try to describe something utterly unfathomable, in the most esoteric means of mysterious as it impressed him.

        I didn’t think for a second the guy was Lying, or fabricating with the intention of falsifying anything.

        I thought he was stretching to try and find a way that something like that, which in my vision is very sophisticated for any time, and therein mysterious enough as to be unable to comprehend how it was done at all.

        I saw that he was so excited at the apparent phenomena he was a loss for words, and used language that was as close as he could come to try and describing what was used to do it, as a possibility, not as a fact.

        When determining someone is Fabricating a Lie for ulterior self serving purposes, more than words need to be looked at. Demeanor is far more communicative than words.

        Of Greatest importance to my thoughts was the fact that the object appears to be a Fact, regardless of How it was created.

        I personally marvel it was created at all, much less with the apparent detail, and means that could have created such an image, at Any time, be it distant past, or present.

        I marvel at the stones fitting in the Bolivian desert, whose shapes, and designs are astonishing that anyone could create such fine fitting diverse shapes in granite … I would think, for lack of any explanation, that geez that had to be doe with some kind of burning lazar technology, its as good an explanation as any, absent any explanation all.

        Rather than engage in criticism that exceeds the value of the marvel, my focus is still on How did that really happen, and What made it.

        To dismiss the amazement of it by casting it in the cement as a Lie, is to lose the greater value of its present, and all the possibilities.

        I wasn’t offended. Nothing is debunked. Its Still a great mystery lacking explanation, I would really appreciate listening to any ideas to unravel its mystery.

        If I was in the desert and came upon something like that, I think I would be at such a loss to the world in wonderment, I might not move for days pondering what made it.

        I don’t see lies here. I see positivism.

        Where it eventually leads as a compiled story, relative to world economy, the meaning and control of money and power, is a story of History in repetition, where lies are in abundance. If anything is a threat to be debunked, you might start looking there for motivation, and obsession with the love of money.

        Thanks for the conversation!

      • a rational person says :

        @ ran_d : so u don’t care that haramein lied to you? really? where is it written that its ok for nutbags to lie to you as long as u like what they have to say? srsly…explain this to me…explain how it is ok for people like haramein to make statements that are totally false. i think you are stretching so you can give haramein and gamble a free pass, when instead u should be busting their balls for lying to you, which is exactly what they did. how is this ok? how is this acceptable? how is this something u can just sit back and say, “oh, its unfathomable, so its ok that haramein lied to us because the goddam thing is so beautiful and its so full of mystery”? how is that ok? explain this to me.

      • Ran_D says :

        I don’t see a Lie. I don’t see the Malice a Lie would represent. I ask you where the Malice is, show me !

        Where is the Malice if you contend there is a Lie. If you can’t reason that out to show clearly, then you are the one who has an agenda without a cause.

        What I do see is your emotional anger, even rage, clouding your vision, that you seem to be bearing Malice … if the best language you can muster is expressed in cursing that is void of meaning, except sheer hostility, the discussion is over! You need to figure You out!

        You can’t lien on the schlock that every thing others think is some kind of “Conspiracy Theory” to be dismissed out of hand by calling them Nut cases.

        Some Conspiracies are Not Theories, they are Real Life Misadventures, engaged in by Real People, and Designed to Destroy You for Gain of those doing it !

        I Know by first hand experience uncovering them and Proving it in courts of Law. So just don’t be so simple Simon as to dismiss anything as a Conspiracy Theory dreamt up by some Nut Job.

        A Real Conspiracy would drive you so Nuts, people would think You are a Nut Job, because it is so too impossible to believe, Until You See the Evidence. Even when you see it and have it in hand, you still don’t want to believe anyone would do such a thing, and do it With Malice, all to Get what You Have!

        Truth is Stranger than any Fiction ever could attempt to be.

        Lighten up! And don’t bother replying if you’re going to use foul language, to replace reason! The discussion is over, & I’m disengaged.

        Best Christmas Wishes

      • a rational person says :

        the malice, ran_d, is where some nutbag who just wants to make money lies to his audience telling them something isn’t true because he knows they’ll eat it up just like u did.

        i can’t understand how this doesn’t offend you. nassim haramein and foster gamble lied to u! they told u something they knew was not true. that is malice. that is wrong. and you’re hiding behind all this touchy feely new age bullshit because it makes u feel better. “oh, the great nassim haramein, he would never tell me something that isn’t true!” got news for u hoss, nassim haramein knows that what he’s selling is bullshit, but he hopes u are too stupid or naive not to notice it. and guess what? seems like he’s right.

        i got no patience for assholes who lie to me. why u give them a free pass i’ll never know…but i guess if u want to be a stupid gullible fucker who sits there and says, “yes, mr. haramein, please lie to me again,” no one can stop u. but you’re still a nutbag. merry christmas!

      • Ran_D says :

        c’mon man, is that really the best you can do, name calling them, and now me.

        How can you even think Mr Gamble & his buddies did this because they need the money. Whats wrong with you!

        Why all your anger. Anger is Fear, where is the great threat to you ? and Touchy Feely, wow … was Nicola Tessla a Touchy Feely guy, how about Albert Einstein too, he gave you the nuke, thats a real touchy feely device isn’t it.

        It’s clear you haven’t read or understood anything I’ve written, being too consumed with obsessive compulsive behavior to be interested.

        You behave like a troll, paid to disrupt anything that scares your masters that rings of too much truth … you know, by observation …

        What do you see when you look up in the sky with all those stars … you sound like someone who has to have factual proof there is life out there …

        Either way … How arrogant, ignorant and conceited of man who believes he’s the center of the universe, when that ceiling above you is so Full with Life Everywhere, by the sheer evidence of the volume of its countlessness, and the final Law of Probability.

        Yes, there are Other Beings in the universe, its saturated … and No they are Not Friendly …

        They are exactly like us! Ask yourself What does man do! He explores, and seeks to consume Everything where ever he goes, and destroys everyone who is already where he comes upon that he wants to take,

        All men everywhere are the same, the weaker succumb to the advance. Alien extra terrestrial beings are no different than us, they only have far more advanced technology.

        They explore, and seek new worlds to take all there is, and move on to the next the same as us, and the same as ants …

        So does touchy feely enlightenment ever arrive at a conscious level higher than the consuming beast … the clear and obvious answer is No, Not so long as they have teeth and the need and desire to consume!

        If you were in the position of Military Authority at Roswell, are you going to broadcast it telling everyone superior beings have visited earth, and they have technology that can wipe us out … Hell No … you would lose control of the mob of humanity, disabling yourself from reverse engineering the Alien technology, to discover how to defend yourself, clearly they can make you extinct, when you are no longer useful, and will when that time arrives.

        So before you spend all your energy and time seeking out a single tiny spot on a great white canvas, and calling it the a True Lie, and moving in fear to destroy the whole canvas because it has a speck you dislike on it … Take a Good Look upward and Think … no matter who you think you are, or what you do.

        Good Luck

      • Wyboth says :

        “How could you think Gamble did this for money?” Well, he obviously didn’t do it to “get the truth out”, as we’ve shown. What other motivations could he have? I mean, if he sold a million copies of Thrive for $5 a pop, that leaves him 5 million dollars. Considering how religiously the conspiracy underground buys these movies, it’s not hard to see that conspiracy movies are a profitable business.

        “You’re a government disinformation agent!” You falsely assume that the government is out to get you, and that they have some big, awful secret they need to hide. Neither is true. Why do you think the government didn’t censor Thrive? If it puts them at some sort of risk, then they should have banned it, right? Well, they know that the movie is a load of BS, and they have better things to do, so they completely ignore it. Who you see here debunking Thrive are normal people who feel obliged to speak out against what they think will dupe others into believing incorrect things.

        “There are aliens out there and they’re not friendly!” I would bet everything I own that there is extraterrestrial life somewhere in the universe. When you think about the vastness of the Universe, it’s very hard to believe we’re alone. But! The chances that another intelligent extraterrestrial civilization is aware of our existance is slim to none. Think about it: the only way they could know about us is if they picked up our radio transmissions. Radio waves travel at the speed of light: 186,000 miles per second. “That’s fast!” you might say. Yes, it is fast. In fact, it’s the fastest anything can go. But, on a cosmic scale, distance wins over speed. The distance light can travel in one year is referred to as a lightyear. The distance to the nearest star, Proxima Centauri, is four light years. That means it takes light, the very fastest thing in the Universe, an entire four years to get to there. And that’s the closest star to us! Now think for a minute: our first radio transmission was about 100 years ago (and that’s a very generous estimate). That means the only aliens that would know we are here are within a 100 light year radius of us. To put this in scale, our galaxy is millions of light years across. So an alien civilization on the other side of the galaxy would have no clue that we’re here. And that’s just within our own galaxy! Our entire Universe is about 26 BILLION light years across. Even if an alien civilization lived in the Andromeda galaxy, our next-door neighbor, we would be long gone by the time they heard us. And that’s just the time necessary for them to know about us! For them to actually come and visit would take even longer. Let’s assume there’s an intelligent civilization living on a planet orbiting Proxima Centauri. They hear our radio signals and decide to plan a trip. But, they run into a problem: the trip will take four years. This isn’t some ordinary Sunday stroll. The only way to make the trip is to build a massive space colony, where you can grow food, live, etc. And that’s assuming they can travel at the speed of light! Our fastest spacecraft, the New Horizons mission to Pluto, would take FIFTY THOUSAND YEARS to make it to Proxima Centauri! That’s longer than the human race has existed. The aliens, traveling at that speed, would have to have their kids continue the mission, and then their kids, and their kids, and on and on. Assuming that each generation did continue the mission, by the time they actually reached Earth so many generations would have passed that they would very likely have forgotten why they had come. Even if they did remember, there’s only a small chance that we’d still be here. We could have been wiped out by Global Warming, asteroids, or many other things. Or, we may have decided to leave Earth ourselves, which then they would have to go on another voyage to follow us, initiating a wild goose chase at which any sane alien would say “I give up!” Again, that’s assuming they live right next door at Proxima Centauri. The best we could do with them would be to become pen pals, sending a radio message, then waiting 8 years for a response. Also, keep in mind that life has to evolve. You don’t just get an intelligent civilization on every habitable planet. You start with single-celled bacteria, gradually working your way up the ladder. Remember, getting an intelligent civilization takes millions of years, assuming no catastrophe wipes everything out and you have to start all over again. This means that if we ever do find aliens, they’ll probably be germs.

        Now, I’ve been very generous with all of these descriptions. Probably the actual chance that we’re being visited by aliens is much less than I’ve made it seem like. Thinking about all of this, the chance that we’re being visited by aliens is about 1 in 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000. In other words, WE’RE NOT BEING VISITED BY ALIENS. If you should even beg to differ after reading all of this, then you should consider psychological help.

      • a rational person says :

        @ ran_d : so you’re right because u think aliens landed at roswell. HAHAH AHA HAHA HA HAHAAHAH HA HAHAHA HA HAHAHAH AH AHAHAHAH HA HAHAAHAHAHA AAHAHAHAH!!!!!! wow…i knew u were a nutbag, but didn’t realize how much of one. jesus christ, u people drive me to drink. “but…ALIENS!” no evidence, nothing…but you’re right because “ALIENS!” what a fucking wanker u are.

        and nice job calling me a “paid troll”. whenever anyone tells u nutbags that u’re wrong suddenly whoever disagrees with you is being “paid”. u think the government doesn’t have better things to do than pay me to disagree with u on some jackass website? damn, i hope you’re not having kids…the world is fucked if people like u are passing on their defective genes and screwed up ideas to a new generation. merry christmas, dumbass!

      • Wyboth says :

        Rational, you and I should team up. I’ll give the facts, and you give the insults. What do you think? XD

      • Neo says :


      • anticultist says :

        Caps rage from Neo. Pay attention folks, this is what crazy on the internet looks like.

      • Wyboth says :

        The psychosis is strong with this one.

      • Neo says :


      • anticultist says :

        LOL it’s a poe 🙂

      • Wyboth says :


        Just wow… wow… that’s probably the funniest comment I’ve ever received on this blog.

        Firstly, it’s not “psychic”, it’s “psychotic”, dumbass. Psychosis is a mental condition where people are paranoid and believe things are happening that actually aren’t happening.

        Secondly, I’m not a paid disinformation agent. I’m a junior in high school who spends some of his free time on here refuting nonsenical babble from people like you. You may think that what I’m saying is too high quality for some average person, especially a teenager, but you’re mistaken. Of course, there’s nothing I can say that will make you believe that I’m not a paid disinformation agent, so I won’t waste my breath.

        Thirdly, if you don’t stop talking in capital letters, I’m going to come over to your keyboard and rip your Caps Lock key right off. It’s really annyoing and hard to read; use shift instead.

      • Wyboth says :

        What’s a poe, anticultist?

      • anticultist says :

        When someone over exaggerates a claim like a conspiracy theory to look like they are being real in order for other conspiracy theorists to agree with them.

        I only say this because he said ‘I am not psychic you are’, I just found it too funny to believe he was being serious .

      • anticultist says :

        Poes law on rational wiki:'s_Law

      • Neo says :


      • Wyboth says :

        Ok, I see what you mean Anticultist. For this guy’s sake, I hope he’s kidding.

        @Neo “You know where I live!” Um, no, that was a joke. My point is that you need to stop talking in Caps Lock. The come to your house thing was a metaphor. So, no, it does not prove that I’m a disinfo agent.

        “I know you and you work at the pentagon!” Oh God, I hope you don’t know me. I would immediately write off someone as insane as you. And, no, I don’t work at the pentagon. I don’t even live in or around Washington. If you think you know me, you must be mistaken. Also, I don’t work with Muertos; in fact, I’ve never met him.

        “Fess up your name!” Wait, I thought you knew me? How come you don’t know my name then? Oh, whatever, I’ll play along. If you really aren’t kidding and you are insane, I definitely don’t want to give you my personal information. I’ve already said before that my name is Richard T. and I live in Tennessee. That’s all that I’m giving out, and people like you are exactly the reason why. I don’t want you people sniffing around my personal life. Understand?

        Of course not; you lost your brain.

      • Neo says :


      • Wyboth says :

        Oh, excuse me, I insulted your brian. I’m sorry about dissing your brian, I didn’t really mean that your brian was worse than my brian. I’m sure that your brian is better than mine. I’ll even say that your brian is better than anyone else’s on this website, or on the internet, or ever in the world!

        Hypocritical typos aside, there’s no point in furthering the name argument. You’re already convinced that every name I give you is fake, so there’s no point in giving you any name at all. No matter how many times I repeat that Richard is my real name, you’ll shout me down and call baloney.

        Also, you’re a hypocrite for saying I’m a disinfo agent because I reply quickly. For at least one of my comments, you replied within 10 minutes. That’s a quick reply, right? That makes you a disinfo agent! (by your logic)

        I hope A Rational Person never finds this discussion; I’m worried that if he reads any of Neo’s comments he’ll give himself alcohol poisoning.

      • Mr. Anon says :

        Don’t feed the trolls.

      • Neo says :


      • a rational person says :

        wow…that neo kid is a total nutbag. somebody get him some medication, lol. this is the mentality of the kind of people who like thrive.

      • Wyboth says :

        Hey Rational, what do you say we add “IM NOT PSYCHIC YOUR PSYCHIC!!!” to our stupid CT lexicon? We can put it right between “Foster, please lie to me again!” and “ALL YOU PUSSIES SUCK ON HERE SUCK!!!”

  17. Ran_D says :

    rational: Still Angry, still misconstruing context. Thats a lot of Fear to carry around, I suppose misery does love company. The Fact seems self evident.

    Resorting to angry insults is first rule of denial, and path to psychological counciling before you hurt someone. Recommend discussing changing your Meds with your Dr.

    I did notice you missed commenting on the touchy feely Fairy Tale Land Folks, Mr Atom Albert & Mr Dome Bucky & friends. You must have ran out of Time & Space to address their daydreams after your comprehensive Arithmetic lesson.

    That was a Nice Math tirade, interesting to see you have all the Facts lined up able to demonstrate your fascinating grasp of every Fact relative to the Time Space Continuum … actually taking the Time & Space to Prove you have Time & Space travel all figured out.

    You are just a Factory of Fact making.


    I’ve run out of Time & Space to continue our delightful conversation.

    After all I do wish to Spend some Time looking with glazed eyes into the circles so nicely arranged that might provide Clues to even More Facts.

    Jesus … be careful of thinking out loud in public! You could get stoned!

    • Wyboth says :

      So you’re just going to dismiss my entire comment? Nothing I said brought up any doubts in your faith in aliens visiting Earth?? Not one? I think you might be employing something called selective bias. Conspiracy theorists do this a lot. All that this is is cherry-picking facts to suit a belief. In this case, you believe extraterrestrials are visiting Earth. You gave a few facts that support this hypothesis, but didn’t list any that oppose it. When I confront you with a very long list of reasons why you’re wrong, you just graze right by it and keep spouting your opinion. Do you see what you did? You ignored all of the things that would disprove your theory. Well, if you’re right, then there should be some explanation as to how the aliens overcame the difficulties I stated. I’m going to press on on this one: explain to me how either I am wrong, or how your aliens got around my reasons. If you can’t, then you should re-examine your faith in UFOs and such.

      Also, I’m not pretending to have a perfect understanding of the Time-Space continuum (in fact, my explanation has nothing to do with it). This is just basic astronomy. If you’ll stop being so closed-minded, (yes, you’re the closed minded one here) then maybe you’ll start to see some of the holes in your belief. Sadly, I don’t think you’ll do so.

      • Ran_D says :

        It’s called Warp in the fabric of space & time. Distance has no bearing, Warping folds over to close Time Space to become present. Speed of light immaterial to speed of Dark in antimatter realm where light disappears. We have antigravity capability as well, we just don’t know it like not seeing the nose on your face the same as people before the last hundred years didn’t know we could fly etc

        Over & Out of the quagmire …

        Stay Standing till you drop.

      • Wyboth says :

        So, wormholes then? Ok. The aliens would still need to know we’re here. That still limits them to a 100 light year radius. Considering that we haven’t received any radio transmissions from an intelligent source from within 100 years, and they would probably invent a radio before wormhole technology, that means we still haven’t contacted aliens.

        We have antigravity technology? Do you have any evidence to back that claim up? Don’t think so.

      • Ran_D says :

        How about this, instead of all of the Negative non-constructive garbage … just tell me How the circle Flower was put on the Stone …

        If you don’t Know, Speculate, offer a hypothesis, Imagine Something, in place of all this other Babelonious Nonsense …

        I would really like to Know … Use some imagination to offer any reasonable explanation at all.

        Even When it was put there, even Who did it, and Even Why …

      • a rational person says :

        @ ran_d : “How about this, instead of all of the Negative non-constructive garbage … just tell me How the circle Flower was put on the Stone …”

        ancient egyptians put it there with a hammer and chisel a couple a thousand years ago.

        there. i win. case closed.

    • Wyboth says :

      I’m sorry, I shouldn’t have posted so soon. I skipped over the hostile part of the aliens and your accusation about me.

      You claim that all aliens are destructive because humans are destructive. I respond by saying you have a very flawed view of humanity. I assume that you think humans are destructive because we have wars, correct? Well, you ignore everything else about humanity. War is the very last resort for solving conflicts. Most of the time, we solve problems through negotiations. Even then, most of the time we don’t have problems. The “common man” spends most of his day working to better other’s lives. Now, tell me: how is that destructive? Humanity has had a few violent episodes, but as a whole, we are a very peaceful race.

      Also, imagine, ignoring the impossibilities for now, that we landed on an alien planet. Would we run out of our ships, AK47s blazing, killing everything that moves? Hell no! If we found an alien civilization, I think we’d be curious about them. We’d want to learn from them and work with them. So why would an alien civilization be any different? Keep in mind the physical difficulties of interstellar travel.

      Now, I will respond to your accusation of me. You call me a “factory of fact making.” So you think I’m making this up? Boy, you are really ignorant of astronomy. I’m not going to waste my time linking you to what should be common knowledge; you should look it up yourself. I anticipate that when you do, you’ll claim that the measurements are wrong, and probably blame someone like the new world order for trying to deceive you. Since you seem to know so much about psychology, you should know that that is an unfalsifiable statement, and a sure sign of a logical fallacy. In this case, you’d realize that you’re trapped, so you’d desparately look for a way out, and you’d throw faulty data at me. I’ve got news for you: the numbers are right, and we all see that you’re only saying that because it conflicts with your case, which you adamantly believe to be true, so you assume the other to be false. Of course, we’re not going to re-measure just for you; we’re going to tell you that you’re wrong and you need to let go of your belief.

      • a rational person says :

        wyboth, u’re wasting your time hoss, this nutbag will never accept facts or reasoning. there is no evidence that aliens have visited earth but ran_d wants to believe in little green men so he can say his heros nassim “lie to me” haramein and foster “i believe in lizard men” gamble are 100% right. this article is about the fact that the flower of life wasn’t “burned into the rock” and yet somehow we’re supposed to forget about that and decide nutbag is right because of…what, exactly? oh yeah i rememeber “ALIENS!” this person has been watching too much of that ancient aliens show on history channel…and believing the brain rotting crap that comes from shows like that. i don’t think theres any hope for him…

      • Ran_D says :

        You know, I wasn’t paying attention to who was posting to me. I thought it was “a rational person” I didn’t notice “Wyboth” slipped in. Now recognizing that, you seem more rational than the guy who enjoys name calling, after looking at your post. The part you skipped over, wasn’t responding to anything you posted. It was to the other poster, and it wasn’t accusations against that person, it was responding to “rational person says : December 8, 2012 at 5:10 pm”.

        Now with that out of the way, I’ll respond to your “skipped over the hostile part of the aliens” comment …

        You Should have written that after I first poster here, since my post shouldn’t have evoked the fire from “rational” that it did … and I agree with what you wrote saying:

        “War is the very last resort for solving conflicts. Most of the time, we solve problems through negotiations. Even then, most of the time we don’t have problems. The “common man” spends most of his day working to better other’s lives. Now, tell me: how is that destructive? Humanity has had a few violent episodes, but as a whole, we are a very peaceful race”.

        Generally speaking I like to imagine thats true, but too often its not.

        The dilemma is as simple as “If You Have Teeth You Are the Enemy to All You Try to Devour”! Fact of life. Just as the net is evil to the fish!

        Everything is Evil! Thats the point, because Everything must consume life to live, therefore that make All things enemy to their prey.

        Its Why the concept of Enemy even exist at all!

        When John Lennon “Imagined there’s No Country, No Religion, No Enemy, he excluded the Fact of Teeth.

        Without an Enemy, people become insecure, afraid, not knowing who the enemy is, and turn on each other. Nations are constructions to provide the concept of Enemy, as a means of having peace among their group, but even then, the Enemy of Crime is present within the group.

        When the USSR fell, that created a giant Hole in the security scheme, I personally witnessed individual become so terrified in their psyche from the sudden Absence of No longer having the Traditional Enemy to relate to, they became terrorized within themselves, attacking others who they ordinarily loved. Fear is the Great Enemy of all, for when the Enemy ceases to exists, Fear fills the vacuum.

        Desire creates the concept of Enemy.

        Jesus cause defined this exact point in his Denying Life itself, calling All Things Corrupt. He nailed it, and it Nailed him to the cross for Nailing it!

        As to running out of our ships with AK47s Blazing killing everything that moves, thats not how it works. Its far more steeply embedded in the most subtle place of our existence than that level of inapplicable simplest of common denominators.

        Yet there are Friends, and Loved ones I would not hesitate to lay down my life Protecting, and maybe even strangers!

        That still does not change the character of nature, as The Enemy of All Life.

        If you don’t understand that, stop and watch the next time you get hungry, pick up a fork, or watch any creature attack and consume another. It is the way of the world, Nothing changes it but ceasing to exist!

        And “Factory of Fact Making” was a satire in reply to the position “a rational person” of demanding “The Facts and Nothing But The Facts” … in Sgt Joe Friday Fashion, always ready to rush to judgement, as cynical Sam!

        In spite of knowing Life is Enemy, we still Love … i.e. whosoever Wills it.

        I hope that clarifies thing to you Mr “Wyboth, as it does answer “Why Both” Good and Evil are present at the same time in all things, if you chose to witness it … just as your handle Asks.

        I really have to go, or I’ll have evoked Other Obligations to become demonic in command for my attentions.

        Have a good day … in spite of the Fact that we are all going to be Dead anyway! Its how we embrace it that matters, if even that matters!

    • NickChatham says :

      @Ran_D I know I’m really late coming to this forum, but I just have to speak up because I am very disappointed with most of the people on this page who have only spoken out of anger and scrutiny for their fellow man on both sides instead of having open minds and respectful attitudes.

      I have lots of respect for you, Ran_D because you appear to be much more mature and more focused on actually displaying your thoughts and opinions without bashing others even amidst careless insults and attacks that you have received from ignorant kids on this page. I also respect your humility to not delve to their level even though it would be incredibly easy to do so.

      Ran_D, my name is Nick Chatham, I’m not like all these other people sitting behind a computer screen hiding their identities trying to “debunk” claims for the sake of proving people wrong. I’m serious about getting to the truth and you seem to speak upon a lot of things of which i hold interest along the lines of Jesus, this flower of life, and other topics. If you are willing, I would love to somehow exchange emails or something privately so that we can share ideas and thoughts outside of the short-sightedness and close-mindedness of this blog. Here’s a link to my Facebook page if you can somehow get a hold of me there:

      Thank you and I hope to get in touch with you soon.

      -Nick Chatham

  18. John says :

    You say Nassim Haramein is wrong in everything he tells because he hasn’t enough proof. “One of the outrageous claims made in the film is where Nassim Haramein says, at 16:32 of the film, that the “Flower of Life” design at the Osirian Temple in Abydos, Egypt is “burned into the atomic structure of the rock in some extraordinary way!” Neither Haramein nor anyone else provides a single shred of substantiation for this claim.”
    What about his theory about how pyramids were build. Is he wrong there too ? Egyptians cut tens, hundreds of tones blocks with copper tools then moved them with logs ?
    Have you ever tried to scratch a granite ? Could you make a perfect circle on granite like that one with some rudimentary tools ? I’ll give you a spoon or a knife to do that. It’s better than the tools existed at that times.
    How can you tell he’s wrong ? Your proof he’s wrong is because he doesn’t have proof of what he’s telling ?

    • anticultist says :

      “Have you ever tried to scratch a granite ? Could you make a perfect circle on granite like that one with some rudimentary tools ? I’ll give you a spoon or a knife to do that. It’s better than the tools existed at that times.”

      Get some knowledge into your head John, it might help you understand how to work with granite in the real world. Also that the Egyptians had access to iron tools, oh you didn’t know that ? pfffffff

  19. C B says :

    I’d sure love to see someone recreate drawing a flower of life projected onto curved rough-weathered pillar surfaces with the accuracy and clean lines using ochre stain and have it last hundreds of years as we see now. That seems just about as incredible to me as it being somehow flash-burned with laser technology! I love the skeptic extremists who always are dubunking with pseudoscience and have no explanations that are often as incredible to believe or more so than that being debunked.

    • anticultist says :

      I love conspiracy believers who have no idea about the real details of the story or the artefacts and just believe the claims and anecdotes of anyone who agrees with their world-view.

  20. Wendy Daniel says :

    The stones which made up the temple are enormous and very accurately carved, and laid high upon other massive stones. ….
    And the temple is thousands of years old …. Before cranes and lasers here on earth.
    How do you explain these?
    There are more questions here than answers ….
    First an idea is ridiculed
    Then opposed
    Before becoming self evident.

    • anticultist says :

      Very simple, engineering ingenuity and manual labour.
      You should know that there are stone quarries right near these places where there are actual stones that are unfinished left behind as clear evidence that people carved them with tools and hard manual labour.

      The very fact people ignore this and opt for more fantastic and otherworldly explanations is not only ignorant to facts, but is also racist and a slur against the actual designers and people who built them. Saying that native humans could not build them is pretty much like calling them stupid tribal know nothings who could never do such building work.
      There are clear and obvious signs of tool work and carving on all of these stones, and just because you are unable to understand how people can do it, does not mean that others do not already know how.

      Also there are plenty of examples of people moving large stones about today with simple pullies, levers and block techniques that can easily attest to how these large objects were maneuvered. Again just because your ignorance of the research and evidence is lacking, does not mean other people can not explain how it was done.

  21. Fred says :

    Your inability to understand the nature of reality does not make it false.

  22. Bryan says :

    So, just out of curiosity, does anyone have any kind of explanation for how that symbol actually was put into the rock? Seeing as how we lack the technology even today to reproduce it?

    • conspiracykiller says :

      You said:
      “So, just out of curiosity, does anyone have any kind of explanation for how that symbol actually was put into the rock?”

      My reply:

      If you had actually bothered to read the original post you might have noticed the following:

      “Now the Thrive makers have publicly admitted that the claim about the Flower of Life being “burned into the atomic structure of the rock” is false. Recently the “Fact Check” section on the Thrive website was changed to read thusly:

      Since the completion and launch of THRIVE: What On Earth Will it Take?, we have received new information that the Flower of Life symbol at Abydos is believed by some experts to be inscribed with Ochre stain, which might date it instead to the 1st century AD. ”

      You said:
      “Seeing as how we lack the technology even today to reproduce it?”

      My reply:

      Ochre staining is hardly a high level technological achievement beyond the abilities of normal artisans. However if you want an actual explanation, which took me 20 seconds to actually ind, you could read this.

      • Bryan says :

        I’m not entirely convinced that red ochre staining is capable of making those designs, but it could be. So I will concede that point.

        A much better point to be made is that we lack the technological capability to engineer or build a temple such as the Osirian at Abydos – neither to move massive rocks, to or to carve and place them with incredible precision. So you’ll have to excuse me for being skeptical of the claims of Egyptologists.

        “A rectangular island in the center of this hall had receptacles carved into its floor to receive a sarcophagus and canopic chest. Upon the island were built massive pillars made of five Aswan rose colored granite monoliths about 2.4 meters square by a little over 3.5 meters high and weighing, on average, around 100 tons, to support the ambulatory atop the equally massive architraves.”


        Note that I backed down on my point for the moment, like a good scientist, whereas I suspect you will hold your ground even though you don’t have a (200,000 lb) leg to stand on.

      • conspiracykiller says :

        Hey Brian.

        It’s not that i won’t back down, it’s that I have rational explanations for the movement of megaliths and large rocks. With basic engineering skills such as pulley systems, counterlevers, chocks, props and rope systems it is possible to move amazing sized objects with minimal effort.

        See the following:

        And the following:

        The latter website gives excellent information on the design, craftsmanship and building of Earths largest monument, which itself houses 100 ton objects. Enjoy perusing the website, it’s very interesting.

      • Bryan says :

        I am well versed in all of the conventional pseudo-explanations for how the monoliths were built. And I have seen that video before. I don’t deny that certain things could be explained with simple applied leverage, indeed amazing things, but the sum total is out of that realm.

        Specifically, the transport of massive blocks 100s of miles in some cases, and the placement of said blocks in amazingly precise geometric and astronomical alignments, has not been fully explained. All I have seen are half-assed explanations that beg the reader to assume that the rest of the blanks will fall into place.

        By the way, Edward Leedskalnin built Coral Castle singlehandedly, weighing a total of 1100 tons with blocks up to 30 tons apiece. He wrote about this in books and said, “I have discovered the secrets of the pyramids, and have found out how the Egyptians and the ancient builders in Peru, Yucatan, and Asia, with only primitive tools, raised and set in place blocks of stone weighing many tons.”

        As for a ‘rational explanation’, I will present the best description of what gravity actually is that you will ever hear. For illustration, consider the water molecule, which is electrically polarized and thus exhibits a mild attractive (gravitational) force called hydrogen bonding.

        The polarity of the water molecule gives it a high specific heat, which is the resistance to changes in temperature, or molecular motion. This property is identical to inertia, which measures the amount of work required to move an object, and is directly proportional to mass-gravity.

        Atoms consist of positively-charged protons in the nucleus, and negative electrons on the outside of the torus. Yes, the atom is shaped like a torus, as is a galaxy. Physicist Ralph Sansbury hypothesized that these subatomic particles that make up atoms are themselves composed of a system of smaller electric charges. “As above, so below.”

        So the mass of an electron approaches infinity as you accelerate it in an electric field because it increases the distance between these two polarities. This is Einstein’s long-sought Unified Theory of gravity & electromagnetism.

      • conspiracykiller says :

        “I am well versed in all of the conventional pseudo-explanations for how the monoliths were built. And I have seen that video before. I don’t deny that certain things could be explained with simple applied leverage, indeed amazing things, but the sum total is out of that realm.”

        Perhaps according to you yes, but to me not at all. It doesn’t take much to string together a cohesive and rational explanation utilising simple techniques, manpower, motivation and lots of time on your hands.

        “Specifically, the transport of massive blocks 100s of miles in some cases, and the placement of said blocks in amazingly precise geometric and astronomical alignments, has not been fully explained. All I have seen are half-assed explanations that beg the reader to assume that the rest of the blanks will fall into place.”

        The ancient cultures seemed to have been completely aware of precession, astronomical positions, mathematics, architecture, geometry, and various other technical skill sets. They certainly weren’t as stupid as people might have implied in previous generations. Believing they were incapable of achieving the things you claim is pretty much a case of ethnocentrism. Technology on the scale of ours is not necessary for a stone age culture well versed in their materials and tools. It’s very easy to judge another culture and epoch from your own preconceived notions of what is and isn’t possible. However, this usually turns out to be a very flawed approach, and usually brings up all manner of faulty beliefs and logic.

        “By the way, Edward Leedskalnin built Coral Castle singlehandedly, weighing a total of 1100 tons with blocks up to 30 tons apiece. He wrote about this in books and said, “I have discovered the secrets of the pyramids, and have found out how the Egyptians and the ancient builders in Peru, Yucatan, and Asia, with only primitive tools, raised and set in place blocks of stone weighing many tons.””

        Yeah I have heard and read about this guy, there’s photos of him with pulley systems if you do some digging. The guy made a lot of nonsense up, and made unsubstantiated claims like the usual snake oil salesman.

      • Bryan says :

        I never said that ancient people were stupid… conversely, I believe they had access to knowledge that surpasses our current scientific understanding. The pulley systems you are describing lack the strength to lift anything close to the larger blocks, much less to move them laterally. Note also that Mr. Wallington’s techniques, while very impressive, do not encompass the magnitude of the engineering feats of the ancient temple builders or Leedskalnin.

        For example, from your link: “Calculations by H. Illig and H.U. Niemitz [1] show, that on the 52° steep pyramid flank and using Franz Löhner’s rope roll 46 haulers are enough to transport a stone block weighting 2.5 tons.” Yeah except that many of the rocks weighed far more than 2.5 tons – at the Sahure Pyramid the roof of the king’s temple has blocks estimated at 220 tons, almost two orders of magnitude heavier than what was *assumed* for those calculations.

      • conspiracykiller says :

        ” I believe they had access to knowledge that surpasses our current scientific understanding”

        There is not a shred of evidence that they had mastered flight, electronics, electricity, the engine, the internet, radio, nuclear fusion, or any of our other technical feats. So what you say is clearly fallacious. However, it’s clearly obvious they understood some excellent engineering skills when it comes to architecture and building.

        ” The pulley systems you are describing lack the strength to lift anything close to the larger blocks, much less to move them laterally. Note also that Mr. Wallington’s techniques, while very impressive, do not encompass the magnitude of the engineering feats of the ancient temple builders or Leedskalnin.”

        What’s this ?

        Read ‘how he did it.’

        CLUE: differential chain blocks for the coral castle.

        And as far as the orders of magnitude go for Sahure, lifting heavier objects requires more manpower. However, you are assuming they lifted it in a specific way, like I already said the way you are looking at it is all wrong. You are applying one specific technique as a homogenous technique for everything, it’s not a good way to view it.

    • Anastasio says :


      “So, just out of curiosity, does anyone have any kind of explanation for how that symbol actually was put into the rock? Seeing as how we lack the technology even today to reproduce it”

      Lack the technology today? You’re very wrong:

      But simple red ochre stain, the same type used by neanderthal man, is the explanation. Just because Nassim Haramein claimed it was “burned into the atomic structure” (and he did this by merely looking at a photograph of the FOL symbol and plagiarism of Greg Braden’s book) does not make it true.

      “and the placement of said blocks in amazingly precise geometric and astronomical alignments”

      What amazingly precise geometric and astronomical alignments are you talking about? It takes more than sensationalist language to form an intelligent argument Bryan.
      Those who built megaliths over 5,000 years ago, especially the culture that existed at that time in the region where I live, knew that once a year the moon and sun would dip precisely over any stone erected on the horizon, and this is what helped those people keep track of the seasons. Quite a simple premise when you think about it.

      “A much better point to be made is that we lack the technological capability to engineer or build a temple such as the Osirian at Abydos”

      And yet in the same breath you argue that a lone man, Leedskalnin, accomplished such a a feat? You are neither consistent nor convincing Bryan, and you could definitely benefit from actually doing a little reading on the tired topics you’re professing to know so much about.

      Leedskalnin, using the “I have discovered the secrets of the pyramids” method.–_Interesting_but_not_Magic/

      An engineer or a technical specialist you most certainly are not Bryan, so why not desist from educating others on subjects you know nothing about?

  23. Bryan says :

    There are artifacts all over the world that suggest humans had access to advanced technology in the past, or else we were visited by someone else who did. For example, these examples of nanotechnology discovered in Russia:

    Now I’m looking for ‘how he did it’, the closest thing it says is: ‘The narrator of the video tour said that these chain hoists could move up to 30 tons. What source supplied the power to lift eight to ten times more weight than could be done “by hand”?’

    So basically, you don’t have an explanation for how Leedskalnin moved 20-30 ton blocks, or how the builders at Sahure’s and Menkaure’s pyramids in Egypt moved 200+ ton blocks up a pyramid and set them into place.

    Basically, you ‘know’ that it is impossible to manipulate or negate the mass of an object, so you assume there must be a “rational explanation”, yet cannot provide anything close to such an explanation. You are not ‘skeptical’, you are just biased.

    • conspiracykiller says :

      Got any scientific studies and journals that have studied and explained those spirals other than a Turkish website that claims some kind of mystery and leaves it open to the public to decide ?
      If you are going to provide evidence for ancient technological achievements at least provide a technical review of said artefacts that include a supported paper and scientific evaluation.

      “So basically, you don’t have an explanation for how Leedskalnin moved 20-30 ton blocks, or how the builders at Sahure’s and Menkaure’s pyramids in Egypt moved 200+ ton blocks up a pyramid and set them into place.

      Basically, you ‘know’ that it is impossible to manipulate or negate the mass of an object, so you assume there must be a “rational explanation”, yet cannot provide anything close to such an explanation. You are not ‘skeptical’, you are just biased.”

      Wrong, I am just not a fanciful thinker who believes that ancient cultures had magic power and scientific literacy beyond our own when there isn’t a shred of evidence for it. The bias is clear here, you have made unsupported claims and have only wishful thinking to support them. I however reserve judgement and use occams razor to make a fair judgement that the simplest answer with the leas assumptions is the best. You assume there was amazing technology without evidence, you assume they were visited by someone with more technology with no evidence, you assume all manner of things. I simply state that we cannot make those kinds of assumptions without evidence of them, so the simplest explanation is always the more suitable. hat being they clearly had some skill sets and techniques to what they did because the artefacts are there, so they clearly did it somehow. I can’t say for certain how they did it since I can’t travel to the past, and neither can you. Your explanation requires me to believe in things tat have no evidence, therefore are fallacious.

      The fact you are unwilling to to understand that these objects could have been moved through feats of engineering by humans without any advanced technology shows your own cognitive bias.

      • Bryan says :

        This page has some more technical analysis of the literature, keep in mind that we have to deal with the language barrier regarding this research –

        I have already explained electrogravitics, which was studied by the US Navy and T. Townsend Brown, and acoustic levitation has been studied by NASA. It’s not ‘fanciful’ at all, it has already been observed, and there is a great deal more evidence available.

        You have shown that you are continually willing to ignore or downplay evidence that goes against your point of view, and to assume evidence exists to support your view when there is none. So make no mistake, you are not on the side of science.

      • conspiracykiller says : is your source ?


        “I have already explained electrogravitics, which was studied by the US Navy and T. Townsend Brown, and acoustic levitation has been studied by NASA. It’s not ‘fanciful’ at all, it has already been observed, and there is a great deal more evidence available.”

        So let me get this straight you think a recent experiment by NASA provides evidence for transportation of megaliths in the past, even though you have zero evidence to support that any culture understood it or had the abilities to conduct it. Also the fact that there is no archeological evidence for a single item of technology, papers, writing, knowledge on the topic. Nothing has ever been found to support the claim you are making, yet somehow you are deeming your proposition to be more credible ?

        Then you follow up your preposterous assumptions with the following claim.

        “You have shown that you are continually willing to ignore or downplay evidence that goes against your point of view, and to assume evidence exists to support your view when there is none. So make no mistake, you are not on the side of science.”

        LOL you seem to have it ass backwards Brian.

      • Bryan says :

        Lol, “RationalWiki” is your source?

        Just the emphasis on sacred geometry, such as the flower of life, in ancient temples is evidence of advanced knowledge of atomic structures. Crop circle formations contain the same geometry, and often there will be multiple layers of stalks and when you lift up one layer you find another spiraling in the inverse direction (just like a helical magnetic field).

        The patterns are 3 dimensional and geometrically perfect, show signs of genetic manipulation, register on a geiger counter, and improve the health of the crops and people who have been in them. This has been documented in peer-reviewed literature, for instance:…/j.1399-3054…/abstract…/j.1399-3054…/abstract

        Yes, a handful of formations are hoaxes, and the difference between them and real crop circles is profound. The above described phenomena can in no way be attributed to any technology known. Crop circles are evidence for highly advanced scientific knowledge.

      • conspiracykiller says :

        Sorry Bryan you are done here. Your ability to validate credible sources and your ability to discern fact from fiction, plausible and anecdote are clearly diminished. Nothing more to do with you, it’s just gosh gallop after gish gallop.

        Now you are talking about crop circles improving health, haha. I don’t even know where to start with that !

      • Bryan says :

        So you insult me, as if that is some kind of response, even when I provide credible, peer-reviewed literature. So your own incredulity is supposed to be evidence for what you have failed to provide any real logical or empirical support for. The fact is that you have no idea what you are talking about.

      • conspiracykiller says :

        It’s not an insult if it’s true Bryan. One just has to read the things you believe and post to see that what I have said is not a character assassination, it’s simply an observation of your own position. A position you have made very clear throughout your comments.

      • conspiracykiller says :

        “even when I provide credible, peer-reviewed literature”

        BLT has been debunked about 6 times throughout this blog, it’s pretty clear who doesn’t know what they are talking about here Bryan.

  24. Bryan says :

    Yes, just like how you have “debunked” me. If you want to dispute that the electromagnetic environment of crop circles can improve the health of living organisms, fine. But the fact remains that you, or this blog, have come nowhere near explaining what the cause of crop circles are. The belief that some hoaxers with sticks and boards created all of them around the world is laughable, and has absolutely zero scientific support. None. Believe what you want, as long as you have other yes-men to pat you on the back, you can sustain your delusion.

    • conspiracykiller says :

      Levengood hasn’t even got a doctorate, he is not even accredited form any scientific or academic establishment. You being the expert on the topic know that already though. Also being the expert that you are, you will understand that not a single person on the planet has been able to duplicate Levengood’s results, hardly sounds like peer review now does it Bryan. Hold on a moment, I thought you were the science expert here and not me ?

      Also this:

    • Anastasio says :


      “The patterns are 3 dimensional and geometrically perfect, show signs of genetic manipulation, register on a geiger counter, and improve the health of the crops and people who have been in them. This has been documented in peer-reviewed literature, for instance:”

      Sorry to piss on your fire, but the patterns are undoubtedly constructed on a 2D plane, and geometrically perfect? I would just love to see how that is defined by someone who apparently cannot even read or is incapable of clicking on a link…
      Neither of the papers you reference make any mention of Geiger counters or verify in anyway the supposedly improved health of the affected crops and people who visit crop circles. This leads us to believe that:

      a) You have read Levengood’s papers and are lying


      b) you haven’t read Levengood’s papers and are simply guessing at what they say

      I’m going to throw a wild guess here and say it’s b, simply by following the past contrived logarithms of truthers posting here without an inkling of what they are talking about.
      With regards to your twenty-year old ‘peer-reviewed literature’ it would be interesting to know who actually reviewed the fake doctor Levengood’s work (an old sympathetic friend perhaps?) as it doesn’t ride with the subject editor at the same journal. Read below for a more detailed explanation:

      Email Sent: monday 23 february 2004 11.50

      Subject: Manuscript PPL-2003-00411 Decision

      Editorial decision: Reject without review

      Dear Dr. Francesco Grassi,

      I have read your paper ‘Balls of light: the questionable science of crop-circles formations’ (PPL-2003-00411) submitted to Physiologia Plantarum. I have gone back and read these 2 previous papers and the comments on them and looked at their citation histories. The 1994 Levengood paper was self-cited in the follow up paper in 1999, which in turn was only ever cited in Haselhoff’s and Deardoff’s comments in 2001.

      I have read your letter and your manuscirpt several times. While you have been more polite than I would be, in describing this as “questionable science”, I think we agree that this topic is more suited to the popular press than to a scientific forum. The original papers were submitted to the journal and were subjected to the normal peer-review and were, regrettably in my view, recommended for publication and therefore published. Your point is that, given that this journal has published in the past papers that were questionable, in your view and mine, then this journal is therefore the best place to continue this discussion. I understand your point of view and I respect your wish to set the record straight, as you see it, but I must disagree.

      The original papers by Levengood were published, and comments/criticisms of these were also subsequently published (Haselhoff 111(1) & Deardorf 111(1)) – inadequate though you may feel these were. After serious consideration I believe that to “continue this discussion”, when clearly from the citation record there is not a scientific discussion in progress, only gives gives it substance and credibility it does not merit. I can therefore not accept your manuscript for publication in our journal.

      I am sorry to disappoint you but I wish you every success in publishing your paper in a more appropriate forum.

      Yours sincerely,

      Dr. Vaughan Hurry

      Subject Editor

      Physiologia Plantarum

      It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that the BLT had an agenda and foregone conclusion to fulfil i.e. cherrypick the evidence after deciding the results, so how anyone can call this credible scientific literature and not invite ridicule is a quandary far beyond your cognition.

      “Just the emphasis on sacred geometry, such as the flower of life, in ancient temples is evidence of advanced knowledge of atomic structures”

      Please give us an example that details the FOL being synonymous with quantum physics and which quantum physicists agree with you. Simply reiterating sections of Thrive is not a valid argument nor does it demonstrate that you have any idea of what you’re talking about. Sensationalist soundbites do not compensate for a lack of knowledge Bryan.

      “Yes, a handful of formations are hoaxes, and the difference between them and real crop circles is profound. The above described phenomena can in no way be attributed to any technology known”

      The ‘technology’ is known though, you even said it yourself – electromagnetism. Does it or does it not exist Bryan? You contradict yourself a least once in every post. You also appear to be creating a set of conditions that even your own argument can’t satisfy. For instance, can you define ‘a handful’ in formal quantatitive terms (no you can’t, I don’t even know why I asked) and can you explain what authority your opinion on modern technology carries when a few posts ago you weren’t even aware that laser engraving is in fact a real life existing technology? For someone who demands scientific support as requisite to the proceedings, your arguments are suspiciously devoid of anything measured in the largest stretch of that definition.

      “The belief that some hoaxers with sticks and boards created all of them around the world is laughable”

      It’s an international art form. Why should it be anymore laughable than so far unobserved plasma vortices? How come the BLT nor any other expounder of the plasma theory has never been able to replicate the results they class as incontrovertible evidence of the genuine phenomena? Most likely because anomalies in the observed crops were the result of weather and natural plant reflexes.
      Why should we believe anyone who is so far removed from the protocols of science that they can operate under a false doctorate i.e. Levengood?

      Why should we listen to you when you fail to even understand the simplicity and proven reliabilty of the humble block and tackle and seem to think lasers are a mystery technology?

  25. Debra Farrell says :

    It may be that this point was incorrect. We were told that the earth was flat, it isn’t. We believed that a Woman alleged to be a Witch was not guilty if she drowned when sunk but was guilty if she lived! There are many beliefs, theories that have been based on past findings by Archeologists, Religious bodies and Scientists and many of them have no definite proof to back them up. Just because one point is incorrect based on the fact that the rock cannot be drilled to give definitive proof does not mean that everything else is incorrect.

    • conspiracykiller says :

      Then you haven’t read the other blogs here, there’s hundreds of claims wrong in the movie. Sadly for you it’s harder to find a claim that’s true in thrive.

    • Joel T. says :

      Which is why this entire blog went through and demonstrated why everything else was incorrect.

      Also, no, we were never told that the earth was flat: the Greeks calculated the earth’s circumference, and that knowledge persisted into the Middle Ages.

      Also, no, alleged witched were not thrown into bodies of water to drown. If they floated, they were indeed executed as witches, but if they sunk, they were immediately pulled out (subjects were always to have ropes tied about their waist so that bystanders could pull them out).

      Both of those are modern fancies, not realities.

      Three strikes, you’re out.

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